MINUTES
ADVISORY COMMITTEE
Monday, May 14, 2007
City Hall,
Council Chambers
6:30 P.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Council President Chad Fradette, Council
Vice-President Chris Wery, Ald. John VanderLeest, Ald. Tom Weber, Ald. Celestine
Jeffreys, Ald. Jerry Wiezbiskie
OTHERS PRESENT: Ald. Tony Theisen, Ald. Thomas De Wane, Ald.
Andy Nicholson, City Staff, Members of the Media, members of the public
1. Call to order.
The meeting was called to
order by Chairman, Chad Fradette at 7:00 p.m.
At the start of the meeting, all members were present with the exception
of Ald. Tom Weber, who arrived at 8:05 p.m.
2. Discussion and action on City of Green Bay Citizen
and Legal Immigrant Protection Act.
Chairman Fradette read an
opening statement as follows: “Good
evening ladies and gentlemen. As
President of the City Council and the author of the legislation at issue
tonight I’d like to say a few words before we take testimony. As I’ve indicated in the past, I brought
this proposal forward following input I received from colleagues and
constituents. That input along with the
Federal government’s utter failure to adequately address current immigration
problems, has prompted a debate that I would traditionally entrust to
Congress. After all, we can agree that
immigration is a federal issue.
However, absent action by the House and Senate, I felt it was necessary
for Green Bay to assert its intent to follow existing law and to deal
proactively with requests for privileges from unauthorized workers and the
people who employ them. Those
privileges include licensure that both lawful and unlawful citizens seek and
for which there is, at time, competition.
I’d like to reiterate that
current law makes it illegal to hire an alien, to recruit an alien, or to refer
an alien for a fee, knowing that the alien is unauthorized to work in the
United States. It is equally illegal to
continue to employ an alien after determining that the individual is not
authorized to work. Unless and until
Congress acts to the contrary, that will continue to be the law regardless of
what happens with the legislation before us tonight. I believe it to be critical to the proper government of our city
that the City Council acknowledges this fact and affirms its intent to enforce
the law. Having said that, I also
recognize that enforcement of the law should not embarrass, encroach upon, or
even inconvenience the innocent and, when the law is not adequately addressing
the issue, it is our duty to influence a change in that law. I further recognize that the debate over
this issue has been, in some ways, counterproductive and divisive. I have never intended to divide. In fact, I stand ready to pursue my basic
objectives in a fashion that reigns in the acrimony while getting all parties
on the same page in terms of building a better and more welcoming Green Bay
while ensuring a safer and more secure community with economic opportunity for
anyone who wishes to fulfill a dream by working hard and within the law. If these objectives can be met through some
vehicle other than the ordinance in front of you, I would embrace such a
proposal.
One way or another we must
insist that Congress take action on an immigration bill as quickly as possible
and, I believe, we must advise the citizens of Green Bay and those beyond our
borders that we respect the law and intend to enforce it. In that spirit, I offer the floor first to
members of the City Council and, following that, I have invited former Mayor
Paul Jadin to offer the first public testimony. Thank you”.
Chairman Fradette first
turned the floor over to Atty. Jerry Hanson to explain minor changes in the
wording of the ordinance. Atty. Hanson
reviewed the changes to the language in Section 4.0 of the ordinance since the
last Advisory Committee meeting stating that it had been raised to them that
some of the language was a potential problem with federal Law regarding a
precondition. He stated that there was
no intent of the Law Dept. to make any indication that you put a precondition
on this before you authorize the license. He noted that the licenses issued by
the city shall be subject to the condition that unauthorized aliens not be
employed by the license holder within the city. He said the purpose of the ordinance is to put people on notice
of a condition that this Council is indicating that if and when a license were
to be looked at for violating this ordinance that this Council believes that
this would be a substantial basis for revocation of that license. He said they’ve made some changes in an
attempt to clarify that and took out the precondition for approval.
Motion made by
Vice-President Wery, seconded by Ald. Vanderleest to approve the changes in 4.0
as read by Atty. Hanson. Motion carried
unanimously.
Chairman Fradette asked
members of the public to fill out a form if they wished to speak; encouraged
people to speak, and said they will be allowed to speak for three minutes; he
asked the public to be respectful and to hold applause. He indicated that he will be calling the
names of the speakers in the order they will be speaking.
Former Mayor Paul Jadin
addressed the committee stating that he applauded Chairman Fradette for his
opening remarks stating that he thinks it’s important that we all recognize
that there may be other solutions to this problem we find ourselves in. He said the Federal Government is the
biggest culprit here and has failed us in not bringing forward legislation that
could solve this problem as much as a decade ago. He said clearly our immigration policy is flawed; we have a
problem both from a business perspective and an employment perspective,
whenever employees are undocumented. He
stated that because the employer has problems in having to check the documents
(most forged documents are quite sophisticated and can generally beat the
system) so there is a problem with employers having to go so far in terms of
checking sometimes legal immigrants and then facing discrimination suites for
profiling. He said another problem is
the employee paying into the Social Security system and not receiving any
benefit, and there is the problem of employees exaggerating the number of
dependents on their W4 forms and having less taxes deducted than necessary, and
not adjusting this on April 15th because they do not file a tax
return.
Mr. Jadin said one thing we
can all agree on is whether the end solution is to take 12 million people and
send them back to their country of origin or to find a way to make them
eligible for a status upgrade. He said
one way or another there should not be any undocumented workers left over;
either they are going to be here because they paid a penalty and earned their
way back to traditional status, or they’re all going to be deported. He said we should therefore be left with no
one who is illegal and if there are, then we should have enforcement in place
to find them and send them back to their country of origin.
Mr. Jadin stated that he
believes the ordinance in front of them tonight codifies existing law and is
pleased that they clarified that the law forbids hiring unlawful workers, it
forbids taking a fee to find someone a job, and it’s illegal for the worker to
even have a job; adding that that’s the law. He said the City Council is well
advised to indicate its willingness to enforce that law. He stated that one of the most significant
things you can do is say that the rule of law is paramount for us and we want
to follow it. Having said that, he
stated that he believes they have the ability to achieve that through a
resolution which more clearly explains why they are trying to accomplish this;
explains their desire to have Congress to take very affirmative and effective
action as soon as possible, and would give them the opportunity to say when
Congress acts, we would appreciate if they consider the following further
advice with respect to penalties or the whole issue of amnesty. He said our borders need security and we all
agree that security is important.
Mr. Jadin asked that the
committee consider the possibility that a resolution in lieu of an ordinance
would make some sense. He said that
resolution would call on the Federal Government to act and it would also
reaffirm the Council’s desire and willingness to follow the existing law, as
opposed to an ordinance that simply says “we are passing a law that follows the
law”. He distributed a copy of the resolution that he authored and asked the
committee to take the time to consider a resolution instead of an ordinance,
adding that he would be happy to work with everyone in the audience, everyone
who has weighed in on the issue from the diocese to the business
community. He said the business
community wants to make sure this issue is addressed in such a way that it
allows for corporations locally to continue operating effectively and avoids
any sort of negative impact on the community’s image, because that is what
gives us the ability to bring new business here. He said the Senate is meeting on this issue this week.
The following people spoke
in opposition to the ordinance:
Barbara Shiffer, 774 Winding
Trail, Oneida
Judy
Whiting, 918 Venus Dr., Green Bay
Steven
Dutch, 1014 Howard St., Green Bay
Shawn
Dutch, 1014 Howard St., Green Bay
Lynn
Griebling, 1743 ’76 Place, Green Bay
Chico
Ramirez, 1933 Deckner Ave., Green Bay
Joan
Turner, 532 Edgewood Dr., Green Bay
Darryl
Modine, Milwaukee, WI – League of United Latin American Citizens
Melanie
Maczka, 1365 University Ave., Green Bay
V.
Adriana Talavera de Ruhl, 211 S. Monroe Ave., Green Bay
Amy
Olson Guillén, 1721 E. Shore Dr., Green Bay
Sandy
Duckett, 2552 Wilder Ct., Green Bay
Jessica
Garrels, 118 S. Washington, 318B, Green Bay
Jean
Riquelme, 3625 Poin3.
Lane,
Green Bay
Joanne
Lange, 2128 N. 73rd St., Wauwatosa
James
Boudreaux, 1033 W. Walker St., Milwaukee – VOCES de la FRONTERA
Bill
Lange, 2128 N. 73rd St., Wauwatosa, WI
Carol
Ponce-Torrez, 1215 Crestwood Dr., Green Bay
Roberto
Torrez, 1215 Crestwood Dr., Green Bay
Jeffrey
E. Harpt, 440 S. Van Buren St., Green Bay
Darryl
Buck, 1512 Elm Street, Green Bay
Eulalia
Riojas, 609 N. Ashland Ave., Green Bay, Petition with 500 signatures against
ordinance
Paul
Novotny, 1558 Morrow St., Green Bay
Peter
Kellogg, 3791 Grove Rd., Green Bay
Antonio
Saldana, 1235 Lark St., Green Bay
Ryan
Bessett, 2573 Garden Park Terrace, Green Bay
Jessica
Schmidt, 1361 University Ave., Green Bay
Helen
Schwartz, 159 Apple Tree, Green Bay
Esterfon
De Le Torre, 2535 Cherrywood Ln., Green Bay
Barnado
Nunez, 969 Howard St., Green Bay
Steve
Herro, 1016 N. Broadway, Green Bay
Fifty-one
other individuals signed a form indicating they opposed this ordinance, but did
not wish to speak. Two people left
before having an opportunity to speak.
Ms. Riojas turned in a petition with 500 signatures opposing this
ordinance.
The following people spoke
in favor of the ordinance:
Stephen Pilato, 2886 West
Point Rd., Green Bay
Jerry Bader, 115 S.
Jefferson St., Green Bay
Peter Kurowski, 1006 W.
Mason St., Green Bay
Michael Pakanich, 632 S.
Roosevelt St., Green Bay
John Kumm, 810 Marvin Lane,
Green Bay
Henry Wickman, 1539 Elm St.,
Green Bay
Clarice Jarock, 1270 S. 7th
Ave., De Pere
Terri Pavlick, 1146 Alpine
Dr., Green Bay
Christine Smits, 2767
Charleston Dr., Green Bay
Ronald Deffner, 470 Cottage
Grove Ave., Ashwaubenon
Len Dessell, 1841 Dousman
St., Green Bay
Robert Graf, 1930 9th
St., Green Bay
Richard Carlstedt, 1640
Dancing Dunes Dr., Green Bay
Jay Snell, 324 Van Caster
Dr., Green Bay
Jerry Anderson, 305 Windward
Rd., Green Bay
Glen Schwalbach, 1424 Harbor
Springs Cir., Green Bay
Rich Strong, 521 St. Francis
Dr., Green Bay
Alfredo Atkinson II, 2214
Imperial Lane, Apt. #3, Green Bay
Mike Curtis, 900 Ontario
Rd., Green Bay
Norval Smits, Birch Creek
Apartments, Green Bay
Dale Peterson, 708 E.
Allouez Ave., Green Bay
Fifty-three individuals
signed a form indicating that they supported this ordinance, but did not wish
to speak. Two people left before having an opportunity to speak.
Motion made by Ald.
Vanderleest, seconded by Ald. Weber to return to regular order of
business. Motion carried.
Ald. John Vanderleest said
many good comments were given during the public comment and said the Committee
now has to make a decision based on what they feel their constituents believe
and what they believe as elected representatives of the City of Green Bay. He stated that he received over 100
communications regarding this issue; 4 opposed and the remainder in support of
the ordinance. He said Atty. Richard
Strong was in his mind, the best speaker of the evening. He addressed the issues
of the ordinance itself; it does codify and support existing federal law and
said if employers are hiring illegal immigrants, that is breaking the law. He
believes the city is in its right to pursue this issue and said there are many
social and difficult issues in our community based on the fact that illegal
immigration issue has not been dealt with on the federal level. He cited the
example of how Brown County deals with criminals who are illegal immigrants
after they are released back into the community, stating that we are not
receiving assistance for deporting criminals who are illegal immigrants. He
cited an example of an employer in the city who was exploiting workers charging
them over $1,000 to receive falsified social security documents. He said the federal government has done a
very poor job on most of these issues and said locally, this ordinance is
supporting federal law and he supports this ordinance. He recommends voting on the ordinance
tonight and addressing the proposed resolution by Mr. Jadin at the full Council
meeting tomorrow evening. Ald.
Vanderleest said there were many passionate arguments against the ordinance but
said our laws and economy do not allow for open borders for everything and we
have to be realistic and pragmatic. He
stated that we need to work to obtain enforcement of this ordinance,
investigate that plan and come back for a plan for enforcement. He said we need immigration officers from
the federal level in Green Bay and Brown County and said we should work on a training
program for the City Police Department to work with immigration officers. He
said while many of the immigrants come here for a job and to provide for their
family, we also have gang activity and the criminal element as well.
Motion made by Ald.
Vanderleest, seconded by Vice President Wery to support the ordinance as
amended by Atty. Hanson.
Ald. Vanderleest believes
the resolution should be addressed by the full Council and said enforcement of
the ordinance was discussed at the Protection & Welfare Committee. He said
part of any resolution should include a request for funding for immigration
officers for Green Bay and Brown County, and would be forwarded on to the U.S.
Senators from Wisconsin and to Congressman Kagen.
President Fradette asked if
the committee would like to discuss the proposed resolution? Ald. Vanderleest said the committee needs
time to review the resolution. Ald.
Wiezbiskie said Paul Jadin’s resolution has a lot of merit and he sees no reason
to pass an ordinance. He would like to see discussion on the resolution. Ald.
Jeffreys said she is willing to discuss the resolution tonight. Ald. Theisen
asked if it is proper to discuss the resolution tonight, under the wording of
the agenda? Atty. Hanson said it is
proper. President Fradette informed the public that any action taken on the
ordinance tonight will be before the full Council at the June 5th
meeting.
Vice President Wery thanked
everyone who spoke this evening. He said it’s unfortunate that Council is
compelled to act on this local level but said inaction at the Federal level is
forcing their hand. He stated that he favors a resolution to our fellow
representatives. He send besides the intended legal aspect of this ordinance,
it sends a clear signal to all, that legal immigrants are welcome in Green Bay;
however, illegal aliens who are taking advantage of our bountiful generosity
are discouraged. He said there are reams of data on the financial burden as
well as health issues related to illegal aliens. Ald. Wery feels every city,
village and town should join us to do what we can legally to stem the tide. He
said we need to send a message to federally elected officials because the
masses they represent are angered by their inaction. He said there is nothing scandalous about the ordinance and said
the vast majority of the input he received from his constituents was in favor
of the ordinance. He believes the
ordinance is fair and reasonable, adding that he believes in the rule of law.
Ald. Weber said he has been
asked frequently what does the ordinance do?
He said it establishes the position of the city with its relationship
with those licensees that care to take licenses to employ other people. He said
the federal government’s inaction is something that is virtually intolerable
and suspect. He stated that he has a hard time with the Federal Government
disobeying its own laws. He said he does not respect lawmakers who approve and
encourage civil disobedience. He said one gentleman spoke to one constitution
for the United States but said there are 50 state constitutions and the power
in our country is from the people to their local, and state legislators and to
the federal government, not the other way around. He said it is the duty of
local City Councils taking on an issue that the Federal Government refuses to
take on. Ald. Weber said it’s hard to enforce many laws in this country, but
that doesn’t mean we should stop trying, adding that we do what is the right
thing. He said the vast majority of his constituency supports the ordinance and
only two or three opposed it. He summed up by saying that he supports the
ordinance.
Ald. Wiezbiskie thanked
everyone for coming and expressing their concerns and desires. He stated that
many people and organizations have been calling him and said he has heard both
support of and opposition to this ordinance. He said he does not support the
Council trying to enforce the Federal rulings and use Council time that could
be spent on neighborhood issues. He said licensed businesses must comply with
the Federal Law and said he doesn’t go along with those who break the law. He
stated in this case the City has no jurisdiction over Federal rulings and said
at a recent Protection & Welfare Committee meeting the City Police Dept.
said that the city cannot enforce Federal laws. He said the committee then said
they would hire a couple people and get training for the Police Dept. and added
that they would approach the County if that didn’t work. Ald. Wiezbiskie said
he believes the County earlier had decided that they weren’t going to rule on
this issue. He said hiring Federal
marshals would involve a cost and said he does not support our tax dollars
paying for a lawsuit adding that it’s just a matter of when a lawsuit will
come. He cited examples of costly
lawsuits in other states. He said we
should listen to the strong groups like the ACLU and said he has the highest
regard for the Sisters of St. Francis, who are very intelligent and are against
this ordinance. Ald. Wiezbiskie said this is heading into a racist issue and
said he has been threatened with votes. He said this ordinance will have an
economic impact; there are a lot of people doing work that we don’t want to do
and said it would be difficult to market Green Bay at this time. He recommends giving this issue back to the
Feds where it belongs and agrees that this ordinance will not solve the issue.
He favors entertaining the resolution by Paul Jadin and said this may be the
only tool Council is looking for.
Ald. Jeffreys said she
appreciates the members of the committee and staff working on this ordinance to
make it better. She thanked all the people who came tonight to express their
opinions and said it has been good to see our democracy at work. She said she
still does not support this ordinance even as amended and feels it’s a better
idea to make a plea to the federal government and said she would entertain the
idea of requesting funds from the Federal Government in a resolution, if we are
allowed to do that. She referred to the rule of law, which means consistency,
predictability and just. She said we have a multi-layered judicial, legislative
system in this country that we all agreed to as citizens. She said if the
federal government explicitly preempts you from acting on something, you are
preempted; that’s the rule. She stated that her constituent calls have been
50/50. She questioned Atty. Hanson
about the first line in Section 4.0 of the ordinance which states that “No City
licenses shall be issued to unauthorized aliens.” She asked who is determining
the unauthorized alien portion and asked if that then goes to revocation? Atty.
Hanson responded that revocation would
be after the Federal determination. Ald. Jeffreys inquired about the hearing in
Section 5.0 b., asking how the Protection & Welfare Committee can conduct a
hearing when in relationship to the Federal Government’s determination? Atty.
Hanson responded, “again, after the Federal determination”. Ald. Jeffreys said she believes the
resolution needs some work but she believes this is the way to go. She summed
up by stating that she does not support the ordinance.
Ald. Weber said he read
through the resolution and doesn’t have a problem adopting it but said Council
is capable of doing two things at a time. He said the debate isn’t about whose
purview this is and said as Atty. Strong stated, we’re not trying to enact a
new law or regulation but are saying that those who wish to be licensed to
conduct business in the City of Green Bay adhere to all state and federal laws.
He said he’s baffled by all the reaction to asking people to adhere to the law.
He said the only thing that is unenforceable is we have to get the verification
from the federal law that somebody is or is not an illegal alien. He said if
they don’t want to adhere to this law, who gets to pick and choose which laws
we’re going to have people adhere to?
Ald. Weber said we put this forward and just the reaction to it proves
that it is very valid to put this forward and should have been put forward a
long time ago. He said let’s stand up for the Rule of Law and not diminish
it. He said the most sickening of all
things that he has to reconcile with himself, is that our own Federal
Government rejects their own law and refuses to do anything about it. He stated
that small Councils should have the right to ask the Federal Government to
enforce their laws.
Ald. Fradette took Ald.
Wery’s seat and addressed the Committee and said he was going to share two
emails he received from legal immigrants in support of the ordinance. He said
he received 173 total calls, emails, personal contacts and another dozen who
are here tonight. He said out of the 173, 15 constituents were opposed. He
added that he doesn’t vote based on numbers but votes what he thinks is right
for the city. He read the first email
from an Asian American who recommended the “three strikes and you’re out
policy”. If a business is caught discriminating, they would receive a warning
the first time, publicize their business violation through a website and the
third time the city should take away their license. Ald. Fradette said if the
city is to implement a policy to work on the discrimination issue, it’s a “one
strike and you’re out” policy and you go to a quasi judicial hearing just as
you would for a violation of this ordinance because we have to be fair in our
dealings and the Federal law says the same thing about discrimination based on
national origin and ethnicity as it does about hiring unauthorized aliens.
The second email was written
by a legal immigrant who came from South America who did not wish to give her
name for fear of retaliation. She said it seems like it’s a revolutionary idea
to come here and abide by the law. She said this is about the law, not a matter
of human rights or racism, and said nobody should be above the law. She supports what the Committee is looking
to do. Chairman Fradette shared a
letter from another constituent who states that he and his wife are not racist.
Chairman Fradette said he’d
be happy to get 50/50 from his district on any issue. He stated that Council is
allowed to pass this ordinance under Federal law and said part of Federal law
exempts them from their general preemption requirements and read from a
Congressional Review which was done on Hazelton, Pennsylvania. He stated that
Hazelton stretched their authority outside of their city or state. In the
review it talks about the hiring of unauthorized aliens and says “Notably in
INA 274a expressly preempts any state or local law imposing civil or criminal
sanctions upon those who employ or recruit or refer for a fee for employment
unauthorized aliens. However state and
local regulation of such practices through licensing and similar laws is
exempted from this general preemption requirement”. Chairman Fradette said the Ordinance has been reviewed by outside
Counsel and said they are confident it will pass a court test, constitutional
test and preemption issues and because of the changes that were made to the
ordinance, this helps secure that. He
said former Mayor Jadin’s resolution deserves it’s day in front of this
committee and asked Atty. Hanson if this resolution had to be introduced to the
full Council tomorrow, or could the Committee deal with it tonight? Atty. Hanson stated that this committee
could address it tonight.
A vote was taken on the
motion to adopt the ordinance as amended.
The motion carried by a 4-2 vote, with Ald. Jeffreys and Ald. Wiezbiskie
voting “nay”.
Ald. Vanderleest motioned to
refer discussion of the resolution to the June 5th City Council
meeting. Motion seconded by Ald. Weber.
Ald. Jeffreys stated that
she would like the resolution to be taken up at Committee level, either the
Protection & Welfare Committee or Advisory Committee, rather than being
sent directly to the full Council. Ald.
Vanderleest changed his motion to refer discussion of the resolution to the
next meeting of the Protection & Welfare Committee meeting, which will be
held next Wednesday, May 23rd at 6 p.m.
A vote was taken on the
motion to refer the resolution by Paul Jadin for discussion at the next
Protection & Welfare Committee.
Motion carried unanimously.
Motion made by Ald.
Vanderleest, seconded by Ald. Jeffreys to adjourn. Motion unanimously carried.
The meeting adjourned at
10:50 p.m.
Respectfully submitted,
Mary Haupt, Recording
Secretary