Alderperson
Amy Kocha stated that earlier this spring she overheard a Council Member asking
an attorney about information the attorney had provided his client. Ald. Kocha was concerned the council member
was really asking for information that was protected under the attorney client
privilege. Ald. Kocha wanted to bring
this item forward to clarify that talking to a constituent is different than
talking to their attorneys. Ald. Kocha
continued to say council members need to be careful in their wording when
asking for information from an attorney or ask if the attorney feels they can
tell the Council something other than demanding the information.
Ald.
DeWane suggested this item be received and placed on file. Ald. DeWane also
suggested Ald. Kocha pull this item at
the next Council meeting so this advice can be given to the full Council.
Motion
by Ald. Kocha to receive and place on file.
Seconded by Ald. Wiezbiskie.
A
vote was taken on the motion. Motion
carried.
7.
Request by
Ald. Kocha to discuss and take action on the City’s near and long term plans
for Renard Island, active or passive use included, and at what cost to the
City.
Ald.
Kocha explained at Council there was a lengthy discussion regarding Renard
Island and it was recommended this item come to Advisory. She also said the City has never really taken
a position on what they wanted to see happen on Renard Island. She continued saying she was aware Brown
County owns the island and that money is a big issue. Ald. Kocha stated she was concerned when the
law changed to require the clay cap for maximum protection to keep the
pollution from our river, this island was grandfathered in and decisions were
made not to spend the money on the clay cap.
She continued by saying the City and the County should join forces in
figuring out a long term financial plan to make the clay cap feasible.
Ald.
DeWane said he was pleased it was pointed out the County owns the island. He continued by saying this issue has gone
back years and years and Ald. Theisen can account to that. Ald. DeWane explained the only thing they can
do is to try and set up a committee or a conference with Brown County to try
and discuss the island because regardless of what Advisory and City Council
come up with they will need Brown County approval.
Ald.
Theisen suggested unless someone would make a motion to purchase the island,
they would need to work through the County.
He continued by saying because all the City Alderman are citizens of
Brown County they can contact their County Supervisors and request an item
receive further consideration. He stated
as a City Council member he does not want the City to purchase the island. He said as a member of the County Board he is
interested in making sure the island is not developed in a way that precludes
future use.
Ald.
Kocha agreed the island should not be closed in a manner that precludes future
use. She continued by saying she was
concerned if there was no clay cap who would want to go out to the island that
was closed below the current standard for closing the island, which is a clay
cap. She also said it is hard to
determine if there will be an active or passive use of the island until it is
determined if there will be a clay cap or not.
She stated she does not believe the City should have to offer to
purchase the property to have a say in whether or not a clay cap is implemented
and there must be some way for the City and County to work together.
Ald.
Wiezbiskie said when they set the meeting they were hoping they could come back
with some ideas for use. He continued by
saying no matter what are done with the figures they can all be adjusted. He pointed out a couple of estimates of
$3.340 million and $2.105 million and also said he meet with Dean Haen from the
Port Authority and got the projection down to a bit more than $1 million. He said the main goal is proper closure. He stated the main problem right now is no
one wants to spend any money on the island.
He suggested the City and County join together similar to what is done
at Triangle Hill.
Ald.
Theisen explained Triangle Hill is owned by the County and years ago an
agreement was reached that the City would run a sledding and skiing hill and
also staff it and then the County would put forward some money. In regards to a new committee, Ald. Theisen
said the system is already there; you call your County Supervisor and say you
would like an agenda item on Planning, Development and Transportation. Ald. Theisen stated the County has not been
convinced by the County experts that a clay cap is necessary for future use and
suggested if the County hears from its experts a clay cap is necessary, that
would be a good starting point.
Ald.
Wiezbiskie asked Ald. Theisen how they would go about getting funding for a
cap. Ald. Theisen responded it would be
up to the County Committee to come up with financial solutions such as a
possible bond. Ald. DeWane said a bond
would not pass the County.
Ald.
Kocha said the bay is a living organism not a concrete street so a person
should fight this as far as it can be taken.
A
motion was made to open the floor for discussion by Ald. Deneys. Seconded by Ald. Wiezbiskie.
A vote was
taken on the motion. Motion carried.
Bill
Acker, 3217 Nicolet Dr.
Mr.
Acker said he has put together a number of cost estimates. He said he does not feel a clay cap is
needed, however the public will not feel safe on the island without a cap and
there is a benefit to a clay cap. Mr.
Acker gave a handout on the City of Green Bay’s estimate. See
attached document #1. Mr. Acker said it is questionable to the
amount of clay used in the City’s estimate.
Mr. Acker also handed out a document on data given to City Council from
Ed Wiesner at the last Council meeting. See attached document #2. Mr. Acker said his only concern with the
number was the different calculations for cubic yards of 145,200 versus
178,000. He said he believes it should
be 145,200 cubic yards and it was probably a County mistake when they put the
first estimate together of 178,000 cubic yards.
Mr. Acker continued by saying his other concern was the amount of top
soil and 1/2 foot would not be sufficient and thus raise the estimate. Mr. Acker handed out another design for the
cap. See
attached document #3. He pointed out
the difference with his design is that the top soil would be from harbor
dredging. He said this design minus the
clay cap is what the County is currently proposing. What makes this design attractive to the City
is the City only purchasing the clay cap.
Mr.
Acker handed out another document showing his calculations for his
estimate. See attached document #4. He
also handed out a document showing how he came to his calculation of 45 acres
being covered with clay. See attached document #5. Mr. Acker clarified the number he received
from Public Works Director Ed Wiesner were not Ed’s numbers but numbers Ed had
received from a contractor. According to
Mr. Acker’s numbers the cost for the project could be $951,125 or less if the
cubic yards covered decreases. Mr. Acker
said through his discussion with the Army Corps of Engineers in Detroit he was
told the Army Corps does not believe a clay cap is necessary. Ald. Theisen asked Mr. Acker how much the
County would be liable for on Mr. Acker’s proposal. Mr. Acker responded nothing, unless the costs
were shared with the City. Ald. Theisen
responded he does not see the City putting forward a substantial amount of
money on this project. Mr. Acker said
there might be opportunities for grants and that Congressman Kagen’s office has
offered to help locate funds. Mr. Acker
said it was to his understanding this project was going to be a co-ownership
between the City and County.
Jim
Zellmer
Professional
Engineer with the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
Ald.
Wiezbiskie asked Mr. Zellmer if he believed if we build the island with a clay
cap this would assure better safety to the general public. Mr. Zellmer responded he did not. He said part of the reason they changed the
administrative code was because they found clay caps does not work and really do
not perform any better than compacted or fine grain soil. He indicated if the City was interested in a
clay cap, it should be placed below the frost layer. Ald. Wiezbiskie asked again other than a feel
good reason if there was any other reason a clay cap would prevent more seepage
in to the bay. Mr. Zellmer said the old
design the County had considered of 2 feet of clay and 1/2 feet of top soil
would not be a barrier. Mr. Zellmer said
while he agreed a clay cap may be beneficial the wave action on Renard Island
actually carries more PCBs out of the island than water flowing through the
island, so by placing a cap the main factor is PCBs leaving the island is not
addressed.
Ald.
Theisen asked Mr. Zellmer if the County went through with the current closure
plan and if in 20 years decided they wanted a campground on the island would
there be any issues. Mr. Zellmer said he
did not believe there would be any issues although he stressed there is a
difference between a use where individuals or children may be digging in the
dirt versus a use similar to Bay Beach where you are just standing on top of
the island. Ald. Theisen commented he
would like to see a time when swimming at Bay Beach and asked if the waves on
Renard Island would be bringing out PCBs forever. Mr. Zellmer confirmed PCBs would be leaving
the island forever. Ald. Theisen asked
if the PCBs that drained out of the island would preclude swimming in the
future. Mr. Zellmer said the
toxicologists biggest concern is with people eating bottom feeding fish that
would be both in the river and the bay and that the sediment all around the
island are already contaminated with PCBs.
Mr. Zellmer stated even if the island was not present there would still
be concern about swimming due to the PCBs already in the bay sediment. He continued that even with the river cleanup
PCBs will continue to flow into the bay and contaminate the sediment.
Ald.
Kocha asked for clarification from Mr. Acker on the clay cap. Mr. Acker explained the law does not require
a cap, but it could be beneficial and add to public acceptance of the island. Mr. Zellmer also commented if the DNR had
felt a clay cap or membrane had been required to protect the public they would
have required the closure plan to have one and it has nothing to do with the
island being grandfathered. Ald. Kocha
asked Mr. Zellmer to clarify his statement on why the administrative code was
changed regarding clay caps. Mr. Zellmer
responded by saying the new code requires 2 feet of clay, 40 mil of very heavy
plastic, a drainage layer, rooting zone soils, and top zone soils. He continued by saying a clay cap itself is
not going to provide additional protection.
Ald. Kocha asked if money was not an issue what would Mr. Zellmer
suggest. Mr. Zellmer suggested a plastic
membrane would be placed on the island essentially eliminating any filtration
of water into the island.
Ald.
Wery asked how much it might cost for a membrane. Mr. Zellmer said it might be a little over $8
million. Ald. Wery followed up by asking
if the DNR regularly tests around Renard Island. Mr. Zellmer said it currently is monitored
and monitoring is part of the closure plan.
Ald. Wery asked if there was any potential danger with the lower bay
levels. Mr. Zellmer responded by saying
while he previously said he would not be concerned with his children on Renard
Island but would be concerned with the exposed lake bed.
Public
Works Director Ed Weisner said the quantities that were used in the estimate he
provided were not his quantities and were provided to him from the County and
these quantities are in their closure plan.
He wanted to clarify there is a difference between a truckload measure
and an in place measure. He also stated
at this level of cost estimation there are not contingencies. He continued by saying until you do the
engineering and get the facts only then can you start to put together a more
complete and precise cost estimation and advised caution on any of the
numbers. He also said the engineering
costs are not uncommon when you consider the installation and monitoring of the
clay cap. Public Works Director Weisner
said the County is looking to place their material during the winter when the
ground is frozen. He said material would
be stockpiled around the island and then during the summer months you can get
wide-track dozers out to the island for final placement.
Tom
Neuser
3341
Beach Lane
See attached
document #6 for submitted remarks.
Jim
Schmitt
Mayor
of Green Bay
Mayor
Jim Schmitt stated he had talked to County Executive Tom Hinz at the request of
Ald. Wiezbiskie. Mayor Schmitt said
someday the island is going to be a real opportunity for the City. He continued by saying he was not a Mayor to
close doors and if we had allowed the County to do what it wanted to do 3 years
ago would have closed the door for future use.
Mayor Schmitt said the County Executive said it would cost roughly $1
million to cap. Mayor Schmitt suggested
if the door is left open for use of the island you have to leave it open so
people are comfortable on the island.
Ald. Theisen commented the County heard a few years ago from their
engineers a clay cap was not required.
Ald. Theisen continued to say Longtail Island is potentially more
hazardous than Renard Island, but if you go to Longtail Island on a nice sunny
day you will find people are not concerned.
Ald. Theisen said while there are those who may be concerned, the County
has its experts and they are saying to go ahead with the project the way it is
and there is no issue. Mayor Schmitt
asked if in 5 or 10 years someone had the money for a clay cap could it be done
or is that door closed. Ald. Theisen
said the waves that travel through the island carry out more PCBs than would
ever come through the top. Ald. Theisen
continued by saying there is no way to prevent PCBs from coming out of the
island. Bill Acher answered Ald. Theisen
by saying a clay cap could reduce the amount of PCBs coming from the island by
50% and the wave effect on the island was relatively small. Ald. Theisen said he wants to keep the door
open so if someone 20 years from now has a great idea the door is not closed
and he believes that can be accomplished with the current closure plan.
Ald.
Wiezbiskie stated even though the engineers said the clay cap was not required
there will not be public acceptance of the island without the cap. Mayor Schmitt asked Ald. Wiezbiskie what
would happen if in 10 years funding or public acceptance changed and would both
those options be available with what is currently being discussed for closure. Ald. Wiezbiskie responded he thought it could
be closed without the clay and in the future the clay could be added. Mayor Schmitt asked if the island was capped
with the current plan would it preclude the future installment of a clay cap. Mr. Zellmer answered it would not interfere
and if in the future a clay cap was to be added, they would re-evaluate the
island. Ald. Theisen stated what the
County does will not close the door to future ideas and the City Council is not
the place to continue looking at this issue.
A
motion was made by Ald. Theisen to receive and place on file.
Mayor
Schmitt said if money was no object everyone would be in favor of the clay
cap. Ald. Theisen disagreed and stated
he is not convinced a clay cap would work and there are detriments to a clay
cap. Ald. Wiezbiskie said if money was
no object the ultimate goal would be a plastic membrane.
Kathy
LeFebvre
1731
East Shore Circle
Ms.
LeFebvre said the County and City dropped the ball and no one realized what
they were putting out in the bay. Ms.
LeFebvre said the channel between the island the shore is silting up so bad
that pretty soon the island will be attached to the City. She said the only good thing about the island
since they built it is that is has stopped the rest of the PCBs from coming in
front of the residents, but they are not under the impression the area is
clean. She said the perception of the
island is true and when she went to collect signatures she said the majority of
the people called it “toxic island”. She
said her main concern was the PCBs.
Sheila
Cradler
3481
Nicolet Dr
Ms.
Cradler is President of the Nicolet Drive Neighborhood Association and has been
in this position for 2 years and a common concern of her area has been the
responsible closure of Renard Island.
She said many of the people in her neighborhood signed the petition and
that it was not coerced. She said she
was looking for the reasonable and safe closure of Renard Island.
A
motion was made by Ald. Deneys to return to close the floor for
discussion. Seconded by Ald. Wiezbiskie.
A vote was
taken on the motion. Motion carried.
Ald.
Theisen’s previous motion to receive and place on file was brought forward.
Motioned
failed for lack of a second.
Ald.
Kocha asked if there was the availability of a grant would there be the
possibility of coming to some agreement with the County. Ald. Kocha asked why the City cannot ask the County to look into
the possibility of grant funds and why would this have to come from some
unknown constituent of the County to their supervisor. Ald. DeWane said they can direct staff to
take action.
A
motion was made by Ald. Kocha that the City and County work together to explore
grant money that might be available to improve the current closure plan to
maximize the safety of the closure of the island.
Ald.
DeWane said the motion would have to be directed to instruct City Staff to
initiate contact with the County to start exploring possible grant
funding. Ald. Wery asked if the motion
could be directed to a County Committee instead of through staff.
The
motion was revised to request the Brown County Planning, Development and
Transportation Committee consider safe closure options for Renard Isle and to
pursue grant options for that purpose.
Seconded by Ald. Wery.
Ald.
Theisen reiterated his point he was not convinced a clay cap was required for
the closing of the island and that he does not want to see the County apply for
a grant that would really do something for another community while we may think
we are doing something but are not.
A vote was
taken on the motion. Motion carried.
8.
Request by
Ald. Dorff to explore a policy for allowing or disallowing active duty Council
members to serve at Council or committee Meetings via phone or internet.
Ald.
DeWane said they were going to attempt to put Ald. Danzinger on the phone for
this item.
A
motion was made by Ald. Theisen that City Council adopt a policy to allow
active military duty Council Members to serve at Council or Committee meeting
via phone or internet. Seconded by Ald.
Weizbiskie.
A
vote was taken on the motion. Motion
carried.
Ald.
Deneys was curious if there even had to be discussion on this item, seeing as
what was handed to them from the City Attorney’s office. City Clerk Chad Weininger said he talked to
Ald. Danzinger and Ald. Danzinger was standing by if needed for a phone call.
Ald.
Theisen said he wanted to address the concerns that were raised at the Council
meeting. He as an answer to the first
item on the email that yes it can be done the Alderman would be “present”. The second item which stated if it would be a
problem with open meetings laws was answered no. The third item relating to the effect an
appearance by phone has on the legal force behind the absent alderman’s vote
was no effect. The last item on whether
the Council must accommodate an Alderman’s request to appear by phone was no
accommodation was required; it was an option of the Council. Ald. Theisen said the Council would not get
in trouble for letting an Alderman participate by phone because it is legal and
a choice of the Council. The Council can
either approve or disapprove of the request.
Ald.
DeWane said he contacted Melissa Schmidt who deals with municipal councils and
was told this is gray area and every community is different and Green Bay did
not have an ordinance on this item. Ms.
Schmidt did say it could be a Council vote to allow participation but as it
stood now it would not be improper to allow.
Ald. DeWane said he contacted Ald. Danzinger and let him know this item
would be on the next Council agenda and the would be able to join all the
future City Council meetings. Ald.
DeWane he explained there were still some question as to whether participation
via phone or internet should be allowed and there may be a couple of no
votes. Ald. DeWane told Ald. Danzinger
if that is the case he would like him to accept the fact we want him to join
the Council meetings and not sway away from it and Ald. Danzinger agreed. Ald. DeWane stated after reading Attorney
Decker’s answers he believed the Council was allowed to let Ald. Danzinger
participate. Ald. DeWane continued to
say he had a problem with this item on the Council floor because 1) it was not
on the agenda and 2) nobody really knew if it was legal or not and even the
City Attorney had questions at the time.
Ald. Deneys asked Ald. DeWane if Ms. Schmidt was going to get back to
him with more information and she said the attorneys were not in for the rest
of the week and would get back to him and at this point if there was an
ordinance in Green Bay the City Council could just change it. Ms. Schmidt also said she has never heard of
this. Ald. DeWane credited Rep.
Soletski’s office with helping to get him in contact with the right
individuals. Ald. DeWane was also told
there currently are three individuals in Madison who are overseas and Madison
does not allow this, but that does not mean the City cannot. Ald. DeWane said this would be something new
for Green Bay and would continue the tradition of the City being a leader. Ald. DeWane said Ms. Schmidt was going to get
answers for him about roll call votes and closed session.
The
motion was read one more time.
A
vote was taken on the motion. Motion
carried.
Ald.
DeWane stated even though they just voted, Ald. Danzinger was prohibited from
texting a vote ahead of time.
9.
Referral
from Council to discuss voter fraud in Green Bay.
City
Clerk Chad Weininger said there was talk about doing a postcard and talk about
doing a resolution. He also said the
State of Wisconsin is looking into a couple of cases of voter fraud where
someone from another state voted in that state and also in Wisconsin and Green
Bay. He also stated he has been in
contact with the Milwaukee Election office to try and find different options
available to catch voter fraud. City
Clerk Weininger said he needs to do some more research before he can give a
full report.
Ald.
Deneys said one of the reasons this item came to the Committee was to try and get
a resolution down to the State regarding voter identification cards. City Clerk Weininger said there were two
parts to the item that was sent from Council.
The first was a post card and the second was a resolution and what City
Clerk Weininger is doing is combining both parts and looking at what some of
the other states have done and what some of the biggest problems in Wisconsin
have been. He also said the Wisconsin
Assembly did not bring up this issue so there is no rush as he does not expect
the Assembly to address this issue until the new Assembly is sworn in to
office.
A
motion was made by Ald. Wiezbiskie to refer the item back to staff. Seconded by Ald. Theisen.
A
vote was taken on the motion. Motion
carried.
10. Report by Ald. Wiezbiskie on working with
staff to bring guidelines to improve respectfulness and orderliness at
meetings.
A motion was
made by Ald. Wiezbiskie to receive and place on file. Seconded by Ald. Deneys.
A vote was
taken on the motion. Motion carried.
11. Report by Ald. Nicholson on working with
staff to write guidelines for Council meeting presentations
City
Clerk Chad Weininger stated the guideline for actual Council presentations is
the Mayor prerogative to allow a presentation to go on and he basically
controls the agenda. Typically a
presentation gets sent to a committee first unless it would be a larger
presentation like an LZ Lambeau or such.
Ald.
Theisen stated the ones that come to committee first it is up to the Chair to
recognize the speaker and let them know how long they get to speak and if the
committee wants them to speak longer the committee can make a motion to do
so. He continued the same thing would
apply to the Mayor as he is the Chair of City Council. Ald. Theisen asked City Clerk Weininger is
there were time limits for public at the podium. City Clerk Weininger responded that the
practice has been to allow 3-5 minutes.
He continued on that the Mayor knows how long a larger presentation such
as LZ Lambeau is going to take before he agrees to have the presentation at the
Council meeting.
Ald.
Theisen said it seems we have the procedures in place already to handle
presentations.
A
motion was made by Ald. Deneys to receive and place on file. Seconded by Ald. Kocha.
A
vote was taken on the motion. Motion
carried.
There being
no further business, a motion was made by Ald. Deneys, second by Ald. Theisen
to adjourn. Motion carried.
